Meeting held at the Internal Revenue Office,

125 West Romana Street, Suite 300, Pensacola,

Florida, on the 18th day of March, 2002, commencing at 1:00 p.m.

APPEARANCES:

WARD DEAN, M.D.
RICK WALLSTEAD

AGENT TED POOLE
AGENT WAYNE JACKSON
Internal Revenue Service
125 West Romana Street, Suite 300
Pensacola, Fl 32501


REPORTED BY: LINDA V. CROWE, COURT REPORTER

P R O C E E D I N G S

MR. POOLE: Y'all wanted to have a meeting with us and you wanted some information. I gather from your last correspondence that you -- you again were demanding a meeting.

DR. DEAN: Yes, I am.

MR. JACKSON: Excuse me, let me make an introduction on the tape. This is Wayne Jackson, Internal Revenue Agent. This tape recording is being made at the request of Mr. Ward Dean and Mr. Dean has two witnesses, a stenographer and you are?

MR. WALLSTEAD: Rick Wallstead.

MR. JACKSON: Are you a representative?

MR. WALLSTEAD: I am simply a witness for Dr. Dean.

MR. JACKSON: Okay. We also have a stenographer, and her name is?

COURT REPORTER: Linda Crowe, with Leitch, Taylor and Baker, 113 South Alcaniz Street, Pensacola, Florida.

MR. JACKSON: Thank you. Ted Poole, Group Manager, is also sitting in on this interview. The time is 1:00 p.m., March the 18th. The location is the IRS office and the tape is being made at the request of Mr. Ward Dean.

Mr. Dean, before we get into specifics, I wanted to make sure that you understood your appeal rights in the audit process. You have the appeal right, beyond what I may give you in a report, to what we call the Appeal Division. You can go to our Appeal Division and present your side of any issue that you think you haven't been satisfied with. And beyond that, you can go into court, if you so like.

Do you understand these appeal rights?

DR. DEAN: I understand.

MR. JACKSON: Very good. Okay. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. I'd like to ask you about your business.

DR. DEAN: I'll be happy to answer all of your questions and provide you with all of the documents that you would like to see.
However, you've made a little introductory statement. I'd like to make one myself.

I called this meeting with the IRS because I am confused about the
tax laws and regulations that you claim allegedly apply to me.

We've already gone through the people who are attending this meeting. The purpose of this meeting is, number one, to establish your authority to examine my books and records regarding the liability that I allegedly owe, and second, to establish your authority to send out summonses, which you have sent to my banks and to other organizations.

To start this off -- I've asked these questions in writing. You have refused to both answer my questions in writing and by telephone, where you stated that you were not going to provide me with any of these documents.

Your own IRS mission states that you will "apply the tax law with integrity and fairness to all."

This is Publication 3498. It also states that you have "to follow the tax rules in the Internal Revenue Code;" and, finally, that I can "ask about anything that is unclear." That's what I intend to do today, is to try to clear up some things that are not clear to me.

First, you sent out a letter requesting a variety of books and records. I would like to know what statute authorizes you to examine my books and records?

MR. POOLE: It's the Internal Revenue Code, Section 6012.

DR. DEAN: 6012?

MR. POOLE: Uh-huh.

DR. DEAN: Let the record show that I'm pulling out the Internal Revenue Code, Section 6012, and I'm placing it in front of the agents where they can show me specifically which part of that section requires me to provide them with books and records.

MR. POOLE: Section 1A, the one that you have highlighted there.

DR. DEAN: Section 1A says that "every individual having for the taxable year gross income…."

[several pages of irrelevant exchange deleted]

DR. DEAN: You're saying this is what -- what's the title of 6012?

MR. POOLE: "Persons required to make a return of income."

DR. DEAN: Right, but what was my question? I asked you to show me the code section that authorizes you to look at my books and records. That [Code Section 6012a] says absolutely nothing about anybody looking at my books and records.

MR. POOLE: That section only defines who has to file a tax return. That doesn't apply to everything that applies to the tax law.

DR. DEAN: My question is: What code section authorizes Mr. Jackson -- he sent me a letter --

MR. JACKSON: 6001.

DR. DEAN: 6001, very good. Let's look at 6001. 6001 is "Notice or regulation requiring records, statements, and special returns." It says "every person…" -- that doesn't say anything about who is
authorized to look at books and records, either. All it talks about is people who are "liable for any tax."

What code section makes me "liable for any tax?"

MR. JACKSON: [to Mr. Poole] You had enough of this?

MR. POOLE: Yeah.

DR. DEAN: Wait a minute. This is my meeting.

MR. JACKSON: I'm sorry, it's not your meeting.

DR. DEAN: It is my meeting. I arranged for this meeting. I took a day off work. I've spent money getting people here who have also taken time off from work. If you can't answer my questions, I'd like to know --

MR. POOLE: That [Code Section 6001] is what authorizes us to look
at your books and records, whether you accept it or not.

DR. DEAN: For the record, Mr. Poole, then you are telling me that Code Section 6001 is the code section that authorizes Mr. Jackson or you to look at my books and records. Is that correct?

MR. POOLE: No, it gives the rules for who needs to keep books and records --

DR. DEAN: My question is, what code section authorizes you to
look at my books and records? I've got my books and records here, but I'm not going to waste my time showing them to somebody who has no authorization.

MR. POOLE: You walked into the IRS office. What office do you think this is? Do you think this is a phony office? That --

DR. DEAN: Well, that's a leading question. All I'm asking you for is the law.

MR. POOLE: I'm telling you. We would not be in this office and wearing these badges if we didn't have the authority to sit here.

DR. DEAN: You know, I could be talking to a member of the Mafia and he could be telling me the same thing.

All I want to see is the law. This [waving IRS publication]
requires you to show me the law. Here is a job description of an agent [proffers job description to agents]. Over and over it talks about how the agent must "know the law," must "apply the law," and must "explain the law."

MR. POOLE: And that is what we're trying do here, but you won't accept it. I mean, you're saying that it doesn't apply to you. You're saying it doesn't define income.

DR. DEAN: You haven't answered my first question. My question is, what statute authorizes any IRS agent to look at my books and records? I haven't seen one yet, and you haven't shown me one.

Now, if you can't answer this question, I'd like to know who your superior is so that I can contact him and maybe get the answers to some of my questions.

MR. JACKSON: You'll have your chance when your examination is passed through to the appeals division in the courts.

DR. DEAN: I want to know who Mr. Poole's superior is so I can contact him directly and try to get answers to these questions, because clearly, you either do not have an adequate knowledge --

MR. POOLE: This gives us authority to look at your books and records--6001.

DR. DEAN: For the record again, Mr. Poole states that Code Section 6001 is the code section that authorizes Internal Revenue agents to examine my books and records. That is your statement, correct?

MR. POOLE: Yes.

DR. DEAN: Show me in that code section where it gives any IRS
agent the authority to examine my books and records?

It doesn't have to mention me by name, but it has to mention something.

MR. POOLE: You can't list all the employees with the IRS.

DR. DEAN: Obviously, but it should give --

MR. POOLE: And you can't even list all of them by job titles. There's 98,000 employees.

DR. DEAN: Wouldn't this code section give someone -- if, as you claim, it is the code section that authorizes an Internal Revenue agent to examine books and records--?

MR. POOLE: It says the Secretary has the right to do it.

DR. DEAN: Where does it say that? You show me that in here, the one where it says where the individual is "notified by the Secretary." Do you mean, maybe, perhaps Code Section 6201? Is that the section that you might be talking about? Let's take a look at 6201. [I should have pointed out Code Section 7602--but these agents didn't know enough to point out my error]

MR. POOLE: Looks like you've got the right section highlighted there. It looks like you've looked into this.

DR. DEAN: I noticed that it says "the Secretary is authorized…." You're not the Secretary. And he's not the Secretary.

MR. POOLE: Right.

DR. DEAN: Do you have a delegation order from the Secretary that authorizes you or Mr. Jackson?

MR. POOLE: Yeah, I would imagine there would be one.

DR. DEAN: All right. Could you show that to me?

MR. POOLE: I don't have it with me.

DR. DEAN: Well, can we get it? Someone must have it.

MR. POOLE: We'll have to get that for you later.

DR. DEAN: Well, why don't we get that now. We're taking the day off, and I'm willing to wait. We've got telephones and fax machines, and I think we should be able to get that delegation order.

MR. POOLE: We'll get it for you at another time.

DR. DEAN: No, I want to get it right now.

MR. POOLE: Well, I don't think this conversation is going anywhere, so if you don't want to proceed any further, then --

DR. DEAN: Let the record show that Mr. Poole is unable at this time to provide me with the delegation order from the Secretary that authorizes any IRS agent to examine my books and records. In that regard, I think we can go no further.

The second point that I would like to bring up is the summonses that have been sent out. This is a copy of one of the summonses. I have some questions on this. Is this a legal, official summons?

MR. POOLE: It looks like it.

DR. DEAN: So, you're stating that this is a legally sufficient summons. Is that correct?

MR. POOLE: Yeah, I recognize the summons. I mean, I signed it.

DR. DEAN: Is this in accordance with any court order or judge that sent this summons out?

MR. POOLE: No.

DR. DEAN: What code section authorizes any IRS agent to send out summonses?

MR. JACKSON: That information was provided to you before on the copies. In fact, here are the explanations again and you can read them.

DR. DEAN: So you are claiming that Code Section 7602 authorizes IRS agents to send out summonses with regard to income tax?

MR. JACKSON: If that's what it says, yes.

DR. DEAN: Well, that's not what it says. It says that the Secretary has that authority. And again, you're not the Secretary and Mr. Poole is not the Secretary.

MR. JACKSON: Why don't you take it up with the Secretary?

DR. DEAN: Well, because you're -- the Secretary hasn't contacted me.

MR. JACKSON: Why don't you contact him? Give him a call. Give him a call and talk to him.

DR. DEAN: What I will do is work my way up the chain of command, starting at the bottom. You [to Mr. Poole], I assume, are Mr. Jackson's superior?

MR. POOLE: Yes, I am.

DR. DEAN: Then who is your boss? Who do you answer to?

MR. POOLE: Van O'Neal.

DR. DEAN: Van O'Neal? Is he here in Pensacola?

MR. POOLE: He works out of Jacksonville.

DR. DEAN: Is it N-e-i-l, or --

MR. POOLE: N-e-a-l.

DR. DEAN: He's in the Jacksonville office. And what is his job title?

MR. POOLE: Territory Manager.

MR. JACKSON: I'm sure if you called the Secretary, you can talk to him.

DR. DEAN: You know, that's a facetious comment.

MR. JACKSON: It's no more facetious than your attitude in here.

DR. DEAN: I am absolutely serious --

MR. JACKSON: We are being very professional and courteous to you and you are creating havoc.

DR. DEAN: Well, I am creating havoc because you haven't been able to provide me with one document that I am required to have.

MR. JACKSON: Very good. Let's terminate the meeting then.

DR. DEAN: No, I've got just a couple more points that I would like to make. Second, let's a look at the --

MR. JACKSON: We're going to ask you to leave the office.

DR. DEAN: Let's look at your own --

MR. POOLE: The meeting is over with.

DR. DEAN: So you are not going to provide me with any of this information?

MR. POOLE: No. We're not getting anywhere today, so it's obvious that you have no intent to resolve this matter, so we're going to terminate the conversation.

DR. DEAN: Let me leave you both with Code Section 7214 [Section 7214 makes it a crime for any IRS agent, under color of law, to attempt to extract from a taxpayer more than he lawfully owes].

I'm putting you both on Notice right now. Let the record show that I am presenting Code Section 7214 to the agents--which they have just thrown back at me, and knocked over my tape recorder.

MR. POOLE: I'll take it.

DR. DEAN: Mr. Poole will accept the document.

MR. JACKSON: This meeting is terminated at 1:20
p.m.

(The meeting was concluded at 1:20 p.m.)

More Published Works by Ward Dean, MD